Standing proud with The Old Justice Pub

Bionic toasted independent pubs by chatting to Will and Paul who run The Old Justice Pub in Bermondsey. We found out how they started, their plans for the future and why the community feel of a pub is so important to them.

“Our pub is called The Old Justice. It's a local pub in Bermondsey, southeast London. We've been open for around 14 months now,” says Will, proudly introducing himself, his business partner Paul and the pub.

So was The Old Justice already a fully functioning pub before the duo took over or did they have to give the premises a complete overhaul?

“It was a pub previously and it had been there for a long, long time, since the 1920s, I believe. That pub was absolutely loved by the local community, it was a really central spot for them,” Will tells us, going on, “and then it shut for six or seven years before we opened it again.”

Will said the whole community banded together to save the pub from being turned into flats, and after a tense battle with developers, the bottom floor was saved.

“There was a big community campaign to save it. And it went back and forth, but with help from the council, they eventually managed to stop the ground floor from being turned into flats. The floors above are all flats now, and the developer had already ripped out the bar, so we had to put that back in.” He explains.

Will says that although this was initially a lot of work, he and Paul quite enjoyed renovating the premises and making it their own.

“The place was essentially a building site,” Will laughs, “so we kind of went in there and renovated it ourselves, which was a good opportunity for us. There was a lot of learning and figuring things out. But we got the pub ready within five months and it opened on February 13, 2023. It’s been going since then really.”

Keeping up with traditions

And what about the aesthetics? Does The Old Justice Pub have any unique qualities? Will says that although it does have its own charm, it was important to him and Paul to keep the traditional feel of a London pub in mind when planning how to run it. Community was a huge factor.

 “I think there's a lot of value in pubs having a lot of traditional elements but doing them well,” says Will, "the main thing is trying to execute all of those things that make a good pub, but that doesn’t mean it will be wildly different from a pub down the road.” 

He goes on, thoughtfully, “Of course, our own staff are going to provide that uniqueness, but I think it's still important to have consistency, to make it a place people want to come back to because they know exactly what they're going to get. They're going to get that kind of community feel.”

Paul nods, “one of the main things was thinking how we could build a pub in a place like Bermondsey, which is very much still a traditional London area. It still has those community roots, so keeping that was super important to us. But then we're also in our 30's, so it was also about bringing the dynamics of younger and older customers together.”

And does this work well? The mingling of age groups? Paul says yes. “Everyone has their own kind of space in there and it's quite rewarding to see. After a year of opening, everybody notices it now and loves the fact that it's both a young and older crowd. We really have a blend of all these people and it's so satisfying.”

Bionic asked what the biggest win has been for Paul and Will so far. Paul says that the ‘feel’ of the pub is definitely something they’re proud of. 

 “That in itself is probably our biggest achievement,” he says, adding, “but the other big thing I always talk about is how a pub is a ‘public house’. Some pubs forget that side of it, so we’re always thinking ‘how can we make a place homely?’ and ‘how can we make a place that people want to spend time in?’.”

“I agree with that," Will pipes up, "the amount of people who have spent their whole lives in Bermondsey and remember this pub, all the customers who remember being five years old and having their grandmother's birthday party in this pub, 50 years ago,” Will says, “to have them walk in and be like, ‘oh, it feels the same’ is great. We respect the history and seeing people come in and show real joy that they've got their local pub back is a big achievement.”

Weathering the struggles

What about struggles? Are there any obstacles Will and Paul have had to contend with on their path to success?

“The current state of affairs is a big one,” Paul answers, “Pubs are struggling at the minute, but when we hear about them struggling in the news, it's not really pubs like us. 

It's chains, and actually they're doing fine. Because we're independent, we have no support network. It’s just Will and myself! We’ve put together our years of experience and the connections we’ve made ourselves, but it’s just the two of us and we don't come from business backgrounds, we just kind of got lucky and managed to kind of make this thing work.”

“We’re essentially just two bartenders, you know!” Will laughs.

Paul nods, “I think the struggle is keeping the pub going every week, but then that’s also another achievement. The price of things is just insane. Last week we got a price hike on two of our main products of 6 1/2%.”

“And that happens. You know, we expect that to happen every month or so to a lot of our products,” Will explains “and as Paul was saying, there’s a lot of stories in the news about the hospitality sector struggling, but when those articles are written, they are often written about large chains, like Wetherspoons.” 

He says, going on “The independent level is so much rougher. We don't have the purchasing power to say to our suppliers, ‘we’re going to buy all your stock of lager so we can sell it at Wetherspoons prices’, so it becomes very tricky.”

He adds “We want to be able to keep as many things at affordable prices as possible. It's very important to us that we sell a pint of lager or a pint of Guinness for a fiver. It gets harder every month to be able to do that, but we will for as long as we can.”

“We’ll do it until we can’t anymore. They’re our biggest selling products because where do you see a pint for a fiver in London, Zone One? It's becoming very rare.” Paul says.

Speaking of the cost of living crisis, have Paul and Will had to adapt the way they run the pub to save money?

“The main thing for us has been in terms of stock. Even three years ago, coming out of Covid when we were managing a previous pub together, we had more ability to buy a wider range of stock. Now we've had to start bearing price in mind more than we’ve had to previously,” Will tells us, “and we might have to be a bit pickier about the products we sell. But I think in in general, we've always been quite active with working with suppliers to get good prices.”

He goes on, “we don't use wholesalers apart for our spirits and wines. It's important to us to build relationships with breweries and get good prices that way. As a result of doing that when times were less tough, it pays off now times are harder.”

“One power of being totally independent is being able to go to suppliers and breweries and have conversations about prices,” Paul explains, “Our biggest cost is our staff but we pride ourselves in that. We pay more than more than London living wage for working in a pub.”

Although they’ve only been open a year, have Paul and Will noticed when their busier periods are? How do they deal with stress when they have quieter days?

“It's hard for us to say. Generally from chatting to people who've opened their own places, it's going to take a couple of years before we see a rhythm.” Will says, “of course, in general, you can kind of think hospitality is going to be busier in Christmas or it’s going to be quieter January. But specifically, you really don't know. You can be a winter pub, a summer pub or both, we are very much still figuring that out.”

Letting the good times roll

So, what is the best part about running a pub according to Paul and Will? Paul says the flexibility to do their own thing is so valuable to him. 

“The freedom of being able to do things our own way. I mean, the first year of opening a pub is pretty intense. It's pretty long. But I think, another thing I love is coming into the pub, seeing it busy and seeing people happy and enjoying their time here.” He grins, “the value of customers coming up and saying, ‘thank you so much, I've had such a great evening tonight’ is my favourite part of it all.”

"Yeah, agreed,” Will says, “the human side is so important. We have a staff member who just went off for three months travelling, she came back and said she was so glad to be back at work with us guys. It’s stuff like this that’s really nice to hear.”

 So speaking of staff, how do Will and Paul keep the team motivated?

"I think the fact that we have a team of several people and they're all very supportive of each other is really motivating in itself,” Will ponders, “another very rewarding part of our business is that all our reviews mention our staff, how great, attentive and welcoming they are, how full of energy they are.”

“I think it helps motivation by remembering that the business isn't an entity, it's made up of humans. We're all people and can all talk to each other. If someone is having a hard time or is ill or needs a long period off sick, it's important to have a personal chat with them so they’re not stressed. Ask them how you can look after them if they can't work for a while and how you can make it easier.”

He goes on, “It's about making sure people know the door is open, that we're human and everyone is there to help each other. In terms of general staff motivation, honestly the best thing you can do is to pay your staff well,” Will says, “it's astonishing even now how many businesses pay the bare minimum and have huge staff turnover. If you pay people right, they're inherently going to do a better job. Pay your staff well, respect them and they'll respect you and your customers.”

Wise words, and looking to the future, are there big plans for The Old Justice Pub? What's next on the agenda? 

“The main project at the moment is building a kitchen because the kitchen used to be on the first floor of the pub, which is now a flat," Will tells us, "we have a small space out back so we’ve been working on building the kitchen ourselves, it’s going pretty well!"

In terms of advice, if they could lend some pearls of wisdom to another business just starting up, what would they say?

“I would say, number one, don't do it on your own,” Will answers after a beat, “also, have a business partner. Having someone you work well with is incredibly important as there will be countless times where one of you will need to step in for the other one.”

And if they could go back to the start of their business journey, would Paul and Will change anything? They said no, they’re happy and confidently proud with how things went.

“We've been very lucky. I think it's been going very well and we've worked well together.” Paul smiles.

“There's nothing glaring I can think of,” adds Will, “there are things I identify as being like, ‘oh, if we'd done that differently, things would have been easier now’, but that was all part of the process, all part of learning so, no, there are no huge regrets. In the pub industry especially, most people enjoy learning on their feet, that’s just our style and we like that.” 

Check out the cosy atmosphere of The Old Justice Pub and pop in for a pint. Or follow them on Instagram.

Watch the full interview below or over on the Bionic YouTube channel.